Interview with Kenny

Interview by: Finlay

[Interviewer:] Hello everyone, this is Finley and I'm here with Kenny. So Kenny would you like to introduce yourself.

[Kenny:] Hi my name is Kenny. I'm fourteen. I recently came out to my friends as a MAP and I, well now I'm here talking to him about the current situation going on in my life just to say, along with some additional topics I'll be leading into.

[Interviewer:] Awesome, so when did you find out that you are a MAP?

[Kenny:] Not that long ago. It's been over half a year now, probably nearing a year slowly but surely. Soon enough at least, but that was admittedly after probably about, once I finally became aware there was something different, you know, before then would have probably been a bit over a year ago or not a bit of roughly a year ago now. After I went through about half a year of just kind of trying to pretend it didn't exist, you know, just denying that it existed, that it was a thing, that I needed to think about until eventually just one day crumble down, I realized that was in it well not in it that there was something different, which I at the time thought was an issue though it isn't. And here we are now, basically.

[Interviewer:] How did you find out about the MAP community?

[Kenny:] I think I first found out about it via, unsurprisingly enough, Todd Nickerson, who we all know as the famous anti-contact MAP. Though I disagree with them, I hope at the least that it helps a little bit; his existence.

[Interviewer:] I read on FreeSpeechTube, like this website where you've written a few posts, if you would like to talk about that feel free to do. That you are like currently pressured to go to therapy.

[Kenny:] Yes, so there what the case that's happening is due to a situation that was happening with my family and being taken away from my mother. What happened is, I had to go up to this child advocacy centre of some sort - I can't remember the exact name - and talk with an investigator about everything was going on, my home life there and everything. So I did that, but what happened is that this police officer afterwards took me to another room and proceeded to repeatedly ask me if I was attracted to kids, which I, very despite having came out on social media, fervently denied, because I wasn't ready to just say that point blank to a police officer. Well, at some point I started getting as he, as they didn't tell me he if they were he or she or they, so they began to say I was getting argumentative, which to an extent I was rightly so, and so they promptly stated that they could just get my aunt involved, who was in the other room. So they began to get up and say so. Being panicked, I asked them to sit down and that I'd talk. So I'm extremely panicked at this point, heart racing, brain also, shaking immensely to the point that my aunt noticed when I came back in the room, in fact. And so we sorted that out, the only thing I could think to ask at the moment was if my aunt would have to be told about it. They said they wouldn't have to, though I do not trust them on that. Even if another, I think social worker of some sort, that we talked to later said they wouldn't have to. I do not trust them on that and so what happened is that I very panickedly and anxiously ended up agreeing to this. Then I went home and just stayed in my room for the whole rest of the day, because you know, I didn't know how to process things at the moment. It's probably still haven't fully.

[Interviewer:] That sounds really messed up. What this like, no one should have to be pressured to come out to anyone or to do anything because otherwise they fear that us...

[Kenny:] I think one of the things that frustrated me the most was how they knew. The way they knew was some person I don't know, who anonymously tipped it to the police that I was that. That I had came out and was in support of decriminalizing relationships between adults and minors, and children of course. So someone had seen that and decided it was all right and apt to report me. And I think that was the most frustrating part, because it was so irrational, so idiotic, to just do that.

[Interviewer:] And also that, like I mean, that they then actually like listen to this person and advent to you and persuade you to. I guess now that you like have experienced that, is there anything you in hindsight maybe would have done otherwise or would?

[Kenny:] Don't talk to the, don't talk to the police. I, just don't. I'll state this bluntly, if this happened kind of scenario ever happened, you just and I and a friend suggested this to me, just invoke your right to to be silent. Invoke that right and don't say a word to them, because you don't have to. And that's what I wish I would have done.

[Interviewer:] I think that that's definitely good advice though. I think for example, I might say if I were in such a situation, perhaps I would be too afraid to like be silent, I don't know.

[Kenny:] I think additionally, I probably it would have been good to ask though, it really wasn't what was in my mind at the moment. It would have been probably, it will not probably, it would have been good to ask if I it was mandatory if I had to, because the way it was presented to me was, they presented it like it was the option, that there wasn't much of another option. That's how it seemed to me at the moment. Which is why instead of asking that I just tried to deny get out of the scenario entirely. So I really wish I would have asked if it was me if I was obligated to, but you know hindsight is 20 20 as they say.

[Interviewer:] I've been interested in in some ways in like therapy, or quote unquote "therapy", for MAPs like stuff that nets are forced to go to that is called therapy by society for a while and like there's this organization B4UAct, which is like a MAP organization.

[Kenny:] I used to be on their forum and they recently started kicking miners out of it.

[Interviewer:] I am so upset about that, so I didn't know that you were...

[Kenny:] I was on - you might have to cut this part out I'm not sure, I'll decide that later - did you see someone by the name of 'Elliott iad[?]' on there.

[Interviewer:] I'm bad with names but perhaps...

[Kenny:] There was someone named [nickname] out on there; that that was me.

[Interviewer:] Like I can understand that they, because like you know, when they are like they get money by the government and that's already like not much but enough to survive and if people like find out oh there are young people on MAP forum then and it's why we react then we must stop this organization from getting...

[Kenny:] I don't appreciate it B4UAct exists in the first place, just on the basis of its name propagating the before; the don't act kind of on don't act on your feelings, which I hate the phrase yeah it's kind of myth.

[Interviewer:] I can totally see that I besides I know they have been looking into changing the name and it's like of course it's in parts I think the name because that then people think oh yes we MAPs agree we are dangerous like that, but it's actually meant as before you act, more like before you as a parent sent your child to come out to us a MAP, to like like electroshock therapy so before you do that perhaps listen to MAPs.

[Kenny:] Perhaps that is the case, I'd have to look into it. It should be additionally noted that if you if you saw me on the forum, clearly you can tell that my opinions have shifted from what they would call anti-c2, what I prefer to call pro-liberation. But that was evident already, I do hope they change the name, I should state.

[Interviewer:] Do you think I mean, I'm, I guess an adult now unfortunately what do you think now that I have this privileged position that I should like pressure them a bit more into perhaps allowing younger MAPs again on the forum.

[Kenny:] Yes, I'll be blood, yes.

[Interviewer:] Okay, I'll try my best. I've written one post in the forum and you know they've responded to that, but I can I think pressure them a little bit more. I hope they will listen but yeah in general, have you experienced any other kind of ageism or youth oppression in the MAP community?

[Kenny:] See, the thing about that is, that almost referring to the MAP community is a very odd thing, because it's not jointed together, it's not... no one in the MAP community there's not a whole lot of people in the MAP community who are together per se just because of how hard it is to do well one know each other irl, in real life, but past that, you know, you have people on the internet obviously but that's only so far. In the MAP community, I never talked with people a bunch on this but I feel like it's hot MAP issues tie in a lot with youth liberation and youth rights as a whole, so I'd like to think that for the most part MAPs likely have a bit better insight into that from being more exposed to that than a lot of the general population.

[Interviewer:] Yeah I hope so. I mean sometimes I doubt it from what I read on some MAP's sites and I bet probably I also have some internalized ages prejudices, but yeah, I hope that like basically something to learn from your oppressionism MAP that you can then apply to other stuff like oppression against young people.

[Kenny:] I think, the main issue is besides the pseudo-scientific explanations of being less developed as if that inhibits our ability to do great things, which I've established this by giving the comparison example of an eighteen year old or a twenty year old compared to a thirteen year old - people can never particularly name the facet that gives an eighteen year old or twenty-one year old more rights over say someone who's thirteen without just saying they're more developed, then not given an explanation as to why that matters. So besides the pseudo-scientific unsubstantiated arguments, there's also the issue of just the this assumption of naivete so to say, just the assumption that we just can't know what we're doing, we just don't know which I feel probably stems from the fact that a lot of them look back at their younger selves and see their mistakes and they must have this kind of backwards assumption that any mistake they made A cancels out any good thing they did and B was inherently a product of their age, rather than just not a product of their poor thinking skills.

[Interviewer:] Yeah, I agree with that. Like I find it so weird that some people that they talk about the younger selves is like totally different and like you know, as if if when they were younger they had no idea about anything. And for me it's like quite different. I think like you know the longer you live in a prejudiced society, the more you, if you aren't very cautious you internalize prejudices. So in many ways I think when you're younger you are in in many ways you know more stuff than when you're older because when you're older than you you've internalized a lot of prejudices and wrong stuff, that society says.

[Kenny:] I think things may get more ingrained as they're in your head more, however I would like to make the point that no matter age that doesn't have to be reality if you just think about it long enough. It's not difficult if you just let the thought cross your mind and actually consider it. I think the main issue is that people don't consider. It's not something that they deem to be relevant enough to consider.

[Interviewer:] Yeah, it's it's like strange like people are often very aware of all kinds of forms of discrimination, but when someone mentions age as kind of discrimination, then people often don't seem to consider it at all.

[Kenny:] Yeah, I guess people to see it as a faulty term that was just made up to describe a bias that doesn't exist, which I think is absurd, because I feel like they would have said the same thing people probably said the same thing when people came for the term homophobia, when people think they came up with the term transphobia, or hell, when people came up with the term racism, people probably thought it was absurd. Well history proves people wrong. So I guess we've got that to look forward to at the very least.

[Interviewer:] From the - I guess a change of topic I'm not a good interviewer - so this is clear but so you came out to others and I think you mentioned some of them have reacted negatively.

[Kenny:] Yeah, and do you have anything else to say?

[Interviewer:] Yeah, so I was wondering if any have reacted like positively or any of them also MAPs.

[Kenny:] Online friends a few, two, yeah two reacted positively. Two online friends reacted positively, I mean. One, I think, I've gotten to the point of mental confliction, because I've showed them a few studies and it's really just boggled their brain which you know was great by my considerations, but in terms of real life friends, none was supportive. Not all of them left, but you know, a few have left and not everyone has been made aware because not everyone talks to me consistently, but of the ones who haven't been made aware they've either left or said they don't support me but in that but stayed anyways. Like one friend of mine, who I was already having a falling out with, took this as her opportunity to just take her leave completely and dip out. I remember they specifically told another friend that they wanted to murder me, who might attack me if they saw me in real life, and it was over message and I get the emotions were high. But it was still a bit concerning, it's not overwhelmingly so and then you know there was one other; and then an additional friend, who I had talked with online for a very long few years. But past that I've been relatively all right.

[Interviewer:] Like this sounds, you know, on on one hand, this sounds really terrifying and like no one should be like hear others say that they want to murder you, but on the other hand it also sounds like in a sense really cool for me because I was always, when I like, I only started coming out to friends with my family when I was like eighteen. And before that I was always too afraid and so you were not too afraid. Or you came out so this is like security although I was so afraid. Others have come out.

[Kenny:] I probably; the only reason I think I came out was because I didn't think I was going to be able to make an impact as much as I did if or as much as I hoped to if I didn't come out. You can only make so much noise from a closet door, from behind the closet door.

[Interviewer:] Yeah and I think, I mean. I obviously don't know all of my history and stuff, but I don't know if there's ever been any other fourteen year old talking about being a MAP or a pedophile, so I think in that sense like this interview, if we upload it on Youtube, then that's something historic. Like the youngest MAP ever talking public.

[Kenny:] I'm not gonna confirm and deny whether or not that's true. I'm not gonna confirm or die because I don't know all of MAP history either.

[Interviewer:] I am sometimes surprised like, I think oh if I went all and then like another MAP links me another obscure source like some academic article' they're like why have I never heard about that. The last question on my list is, is something a bit less you know like political so to speak but perhaps you know, I was wondering, are there any favourite movies, songs, books or comics you think you would like to recommend other MAPs. Maybe that that's about discrimination or perhaps even have MAP characters.

[Kenny:] Currently I don't have anything in particular besides just whatever music I happen to listen to. I don't have anything that would be specific to discrimination, I suppose. I mean, there is this, I mean, I remember for a long period of time, I listened to this one song called Make Them Hear You from Ragtime, specifically saying about like a gay men's choir. I listened to that for a long time, maybe that is something they like.

[Interviewer:] Okay, I haven't, I'll listen to it. I don't know it.

[Kenny:] You could additionally listen to anything by Declan McKenna, that has nothing to do with discrimination at all, but you know, well except for one song they made but you know, it'd still be pretty good.

[Interviewer:] Well my music taste is terrible, like I only mostly just like, you know, radio music, pop music. But I give it a listen. And yeah another question, you mentioned like about activism that you wanted to do something with a radio station.

[Kenny:] Yeah, I don't know specifically how I'm gonna go about it, but it would be great if I could manage to pressure my radio station. That's her near me, to say something on the situation going on with MAPs. If I could pressure them say something on that, that would be great. I something you know, there's additionally other things I'd like to be able to do, you know, if I could protest somewhere even a one-man protest per se, I'd be willing to do that.

[Interviewer:] It sounds awesome, but I'm also of course like, am I safe, would be too afraid of it.

[Kenny:] I think, and this is a very hard thing to do, so it's not something that I'm saying you have to do. But I think; the thing is that when people, when society is in a certain type of scenario and I got to assume it was the same with the gay liberation movement, but when a sudden type of oppression is happening, eventually someone has to just accept and a group of people, a lot of people just have to learn to accept, or not to accept, but actualize the possibility that they might get hurt in the process; this is just a thing that horrible as it is, is necessary for change I think.

[Interviewer:] I agree with that. Sometimes, I think, if I come out publicly, then I could tape in a lot of ways but perhaps also you know I might be killed or in some way coming out could prevent me from really doing effective activism. Like I have done, I would say, I mean, I would, I don't know if it was effective but for example I've talked in front of like twenty-five researchers or so at like a B4UAct conference and that was pretty cool. But others might say, okay you just like talked in front of researchers and that's just you know very superficial and isn't really activism like marching on the streets, but science so. I definitely like wonder sometimes maybe I should come out publicly.

[Kenny:] Well, if you cared that would be wonderful. I'm not gonna say that wouldn't be. I think a mistake that some people might make is discouraging someone from coming out, because it's dangerous. I apologize but it is dangerous and the thing with that is I don't think you should discourage them anyways. If they are willing to come out, dangerous as it may be, let them come out, don't discourage them from it. You can acknowledge the danger and you can say, okay go ahead because again, of course, it's going to be dangerous. You can't let that get in the way of people who have aspirations.

[Interviewer:] You know, something I've been, I guess trying a bit in the past few months or maybe a bit more, is like, kind of artist activism. But I'm still very bad at drawing, but if you've, I think, I've mentioned my Youtube channel to you. I did a comic and I think maybe, you know, if I draw really well then maybe I get a bigger audience but of course I don't have so much free time to draw, like I'm not a professional artist, but maybe that could be a way to make people aware. But I don't know.

[Interviewer:] I think art is a very powerful thing. Writing, I think, they're all powerful tools, if you know how to use them. I think artists are very, not peculiar, but particular way of establishing something or showing things. I'm not sure how good it is in terms of activism, but I think it can give a symbol, it can give an expression of something that is not spoken and I think that's just a good way of expressing a love that often dares not speak its name.

[Interviewer:] Yeah, and I think I guess kind of my sort of philosophy so to speak around it, is also like; in the past I was very fascinated by studies and like studies have these you know they have ideas like okay MAPs are just MAPs are clear, MAPs are not dangerous and MAPs are sentient beings the feelings and stuff. But it's just ideas and sometimes of course there are people who read studies and they then see okay like yeah of course we should be against discrimination against MAPs. But a lot of people, they just see numbers and don't even care to read the studies and I think art on the other hand is like, you know, you often have a narrative and that's like a story and a ds[?] an action when you read about like, I don't know, MAP characters who come out to others or who save the world from an asteroid or whatever. I think, I mean, I'm not good at storytelling but something like that could perhaps inspire people a bit more.

[Kenny:] Perhaps so; is there anything else in particular that you wanted to talk about.

[Interviewer:] I've asked all my questions, I mean, of course I don't have to be the one who asked questions, you can always...

[Kenny:] Okay, there's a few things I want to mention that a lot of people don't think about and that I like discussing to people. It's that, if you look at a study that's proved that child adult relationships are harmful, check that study again. Because, and I'm going to say this only because it's wrong, because the thing is people don't realize this or don't mention this or don't even think about this for a moment. Because people just really want to prove the point. But most studies that show that child adult relationships are harmful are biased. I mean, they only use samples from clinical or legal settings, which inherently skew the results. Or they use definitions that only includes unwanted contacts, which of course will only produce negative results. That it's sort of an obvious thing. But the moment you take that away the moment you take away the sampling bias and the moment you take away the definition of bias, that only includes unwanted contacts, you get a widely different view. You get a widely different results. You get results that prove that it is not inherently a harmful thing. That it can be a beautiful love. And that's the thing I like noting to people. Have anything to say on that?

[Interviewer:] You know, I mean, I don't know if you know, I make a podcast with two other MAPs and currently we have a break. Youtube deleted our account for no reason at all, just because we had the word MAP in our channel name I guess.

[Kenny:] Oh but of course.

[Interviewer:] I'm a bit like neutral on the topic so to speak. I mean I have an opinion and like... I don't necessarily I disagree with you. I definitely want your voice to be heard, but because of that I, if you feel for very honouring; I try to include almost because I know when I was young I had like a different opinion on intergenerational relationships and MAPs we had other opinions like them; for some reason I was very afraid of them, and and so I didn't have any community where I feel welcome in and so I tried to be a bit neutral to paths like as a podcasters but this of course won't be uploaded on the podcast centre because it got deleted. But on my own so here, I'm a bit less neutral I guess.

[Kenny:] So wait, as your current standpoint, what do you think should be done in terms of laws, because I'm the type to would advocate for the abolition of the age of consent, that's my stance on that. What would be, what's yours?

[Interviewer:] Yeah, I mean broadly speaking, I guess, I would say yes abolishing is good. Of course it's a bit nuanced because like you can always read more studies and then like oh and less than this, but yes I guess summer license one sentence that would be my position.

[Kenny:] I think a good thing to know is that we wouldn't need if a relationship was abusive we wouldn't need the age of consent to punish that. We just, we need to prove that it was coercive or non-consensual in some way, that's what we need to prove. We wouldn't need an age of consent to prove that.

[Interviewer:] In the past this topic was very important for me, and now it's not as much in a sense, or perhaps I realized that always like already when I was saying the topic wasn't that important for me, but I thought it was important, more important is for me like, you know, just to have like people who I can come out to and like, you know, that romance, like stuff, like romantic relationships of course. That can be an important topic for a lot of people, but I mean they're also friendships and friendships are legal, I guess. So and that this is a bit more important to me at least at the moment. I don't know perhaps I just talk like stuff.

[Kenny:] It's fair enough. I'd probably be rambling if I was a host for any sort of talk ever that I'd probably be quite rambly.

[Interviewer:] I mean, I definitely want to like yes certainly, I agree with you, but then maybe there's a MAP listening who, you know, feels then excluded because they have a different opinion. And I don't want to feel like, see that so if anyone feels the clue, I just want to say any listeners who fix you that I am sorry I just like you know it's okay if you have a difference, because...

[Kenny:] Here's the thing I have about that is I feel like and I'm not surprised a lot of people still hold this stance because back when I was on B4UAct, you know, I was anti-c, as they call it, anti-contact as they call it, though I think that's a dumb term. It's what they called it, obviously I'm not anymore, but I was but I think now looking back on that, I think it's very akin to a gay person believing it's not okay for them to be gay. As into quote unquote "act on it". I feel like it's very much the same scenario, except once more societally reinforced than the other.

[Interviewer:] I mean, I sometimes find the table to see it this way. When you say people, when you tell people like you are like, you know, manipulated. You just have internalized prejudices that is perhaps not helpful and sometimes, you say if I wrong.

[Kenny:] Perhaps it's not, but it's true.

[Interviewer:] Yeah, I'm just, you know, I'm better talking about controversial...

[Kenny:] Perhaps, it's not the best thing to lead with, if you're trying to convince them of something. But it's not an incorrect statement as far as I'm concerned, because they wouldn't have that opinion if it weren't for a society that drilled it into their head from the day they were born. I probably sounded a bit frustrated with that one.

[Interviewer:] It's okay, it's okay. You can express anything you want as long as, you know, not super prejudiced but it's okay.

[Kenny:] This is just a side note, but I would like people to recognize one thing and it's that people; I like to bring up the example of the LGBT community which I'm a part of as I'm not just attracted to those younger, I like bringing them up, because it's a very similar issue and what people also don't recognize about that is that these were intertwined issues. Like NAMBLA. NAMBLA was supported by Harry Hay, a prominent gay activist who started one of the first what was called a homophile organization, back in 1950. Harry Hay very loudly supported NAMBLA, which if you don't know was called the which is if for anyone who doesn't know, was the North American Man Boy Love Association, which sought to decriminalize homosexuality and not homosexuality but who sought to decriminalize basically intergenerational relationships, you know. And I think they may be for abolishing the age of consent. I don't know what this specific thought of law changing is, I believe it's abolishing the age of consent though. So what people don't realize that is, that groups like NAMBLA were very much so involved in the gay liberation movement, alongside groups like PIE, the Peadophile Information Exchange, which I heard not for certain, but I heard were associated with the group the Gay Liberation Front at least in Britain. So I think people need to recognize that and recognize that MAPs were involved in the gay liberation movement. They were part of it admittedly apart that wasn't always accepted, but they were part of it till they, and I'm going to say this as bluntly as I can as a person who's a part of both groups, they were left behind. We were left behind, we were tossed away, tossed under a bus, be to get ahead I mean for example, ILGA the International Lesbian Gay Bisexual Trans and Intersex Association used to include NAMBLA in the groups it brought together; it would include NAMBLA in that, it you know as far as I'm aware; it supported NAMBLA and only stopped doing that because it was easier for the gay liberation movement to get ahead by abandoning us. And I want people to know that.

[Interviewer:] Yes, that's also like you know, something I'm passionate about like MAPs and LGTB+ groups like I see so many gay people who say being a MAP isn't a clear identity and that's like like so annoying for me, because like you know they're like MAPs, like you, who are forced to go to therapy but like your attractions are treated as a disorder and then like gay people who are like super rich and have never really experienced much discrimination and say oh yeah but MAPs aren't clear, that's like why do they say that.

[Kenny:] You can draw a similarities upon similarities between the treatments of gays and MAPs. You can keep drawing similarities between the situations all day long if you really wanted to. What both were forced to go to therapy, one still is and well both a lot comes conversion therapies to legal in places, a lot of places in the US still so that's pretty horrible. And I don't know much about other countries, but I know in the US it's still legal in the majority of places. It shouldn't be but it is.

[Interviewer:] There's even a video on Youtube, a news report, this was in the early 2000s, like twelve year olds MAPs who were forced to therapy that involved electroshocks and like so; this is all documented and people often say oh like I, you know, aversion therapy against gay people is prohibited but it's still definitely legal for MAPs. There are still MAPs who suffer from that and are forced by their parents to go there and that's just even though like they've never broken any laws in some cases or in many cases.

[Kenny:] I think things would be a lot better if we had stayed a part of the movement and we should have stayed a part of the movement frankly. It's an upsetted to me that we didn't. I think as a whole just the abandoning of us was an abandoning of the principles that the gay liberation movement held dear; it's compromising on your moral principles and I think it's important that that happened of course the gay liberation movement is great, it's the reason I'm able to be openly bi at my school, but nonetheless they left behind one of their core principles, and that's something that should be recognized.

[Interviewer:] Like, for example, I myself three years ago, I came out to my queer student group at university and they were like all initially very accepting and said we can maybe even do a workshop they're like discrimination against MAPs is included as a topic. But then a few months later because I was like, you know, I'm very shy so it took me a few months now to have the courage again to talk about this topic again, and I asked him just can we include this sentence 'paraphilic people are welcome here' on our website, of the student group. Because like paraphilic, I also wanted to include like you know zoophiles and necrophiles and others and this was already too controversial for them. They already said we can't do that and then others will say; others will attack us and this was very frustrating for me like I cannot understand it. I mean they also almost didn't know anything about MAPs, but they also didn't ask me anything so I couldn't educate them. It was frustrating.

[Kenny:] I imagine.

[Interviewer:] And like the first queer meeting I ever went to like this was or the second I think it was the second, they already were people like you know it. At first it was really awesome, but then later there was like a gay person who talked about evil pedophiles and this one made me really sad and then when I wrote home I cried and stuff. It's like I don't even be welcome among most queer groups, like teleophilic queer groups, it's so frustrating. Have you thought about or are there any queer groups in your area where...

[Kenny:] No, I live in the bible belt. I am screwed in that aspect. I'm very open about it nonetheless at my school and everything, so you know I'm lucky in that aspect and I ended up having a few friends who were also LGBT like me, so I got lucky in that department. But in terms of queer or gay groups as a whole, there isn't really anything around here. Which is a shame but it's the reality of it. I like see the thing I was hoping for it's weird because all, because once I came out as a MAP I slowly realized, you know I realized beforehand, that this is going to interfere with a lot of my plans that I had of, you know, getting LGTB issues as a thing that's recognized in my school, getting mental health more recognized in my school. Like this is going to interfere with things, with plans I had.

[Interviewer:] One MAP who is like part of the podcast I do, like one of my two co-hosts there he like his name is Peace and when he was I think sixteen also he did like he made like, what's it called in English, flyers, handouts like you know paper.

[Kenny:] Oh flyer, handouts. Handouts or flyers. Either one.

[Interviewer:] And he disreputed them in his school and then like as the school was very concerned and also a teacher, I think, she sort of threatened him. He was very frustrated. He wrote an essay about MAPs and therefore he like got like some kind of, I don't know, penalty or something and yeah but so you're not allowed in that respect if that's inspiring or something yeah.

[Kenny:] I'll take that so wait, what was the flyer of again specifically?

[Interviewer:] It was I think I've somewhere saved an image of it but it will take too long to look it up now. But yeah it had like these lists of MAP organizations, all kinds of them and it was titled 'think twice before you say pedophile'. It was perhaps not the most, you know, like radical text, but for the school it was sort of already too radical I think.

[Kenny:] I think the fact that instead of just getting only; it's still a lot of belligerent hatred, and even with those who only and even with those who support anti-c MAPs specifically, I still think it's a form of prejudice and hate nonetheless if you only are supporting anti-c MAPs, because that just shows your misunderstanding of adult minor relationships. But I think the fact that it's moved from pure belligerent hatred to a little bit less and more okay but don't act on it and you're fine, is a at least a sign that things are moving on the way to legitimate liberation. I think that they're an intermediate step to get to liberation hopefully so, but I think while I disagree with them and while I do think they are hindering progress, in the same way a quote-unquote "ex-gay" therapist may hinder progress in the same way, I think anti-c's are doing that. Additionally though, I do think at least for one benefit what we can do is that we can take advantage of the fact that they're getting rid of the connotation, the negative connotation, that people have of the word MAP and of the word pedophile. I think we can take advantage of that to our benefit, which sounds manipulative to most people - I don't think it is, I think it's strategic.

[Interviewer:] You know, some MAPs who might be listening when they hear you say they might perhaps, you know, anti-c's might feel past a bit hard by that so I might in the video description just like because I don't want to see anyone hurt just as a warning for them, like that the interview has to just have...

[Kenny:] Just have at the beginning of the video: this person is very much in favor of the abolition of the age of consent and is very much not anti-c. Just put that at the beginning.

[Interviewer:] I put it in a way that, you know I would like to do that, I would like to follow your wish but I think this will get me even quicker banned from Youtube, so I put a more neutral stuff like: this interview contains device talks about topics that are divisive among MAPs and so some MAPs might perhaps not want to listen to it. I think this could work if that's okay. I figure something out.

[Kenny:] I suppose it would, it'll have to, I would like to have the additional note of but I think you should to have your opinion challenged a little bit.

[Interviewer:] I can do this yeah. I don't know a good good conclusion to the interview, because I am submitted the interview but you know it was nice talking to you.

[Kenny:] It was nice talking to you too. Do we have closing statements? Are there other things you want to say and then say goodbye.

[Interviewer:] Well you can, is there any way like if MAPs are listening and would like to contact you, is there a way they can contact you.

[Kenny:] You know, the email I messaged you at [email address]. You can use that. That's just fine.

[Interviewer:] So should I...

[Kenny:] You can put it in the description if so you if so you wish.

[Interviewer:] So yeah, I guess that's a good ending more or less.

[Kenny:] Yeah, more or less.

source: Transcript 'Interview with Kenny' by 'Finlay'; www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HcJ31HOvGQ; Youtube; 8 August 2020